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Re:Persimmon Fit Undersized Radiators - 2008/03/20 18:12Hi Liz,
We have a breakdown policy with British Gas and, as part of this, they offer to do an energy efficiency analysis for free. We didn't know this when we booked them to do the survey, but are pleased it was!
The Engineer measured two of the rooms and then calculated the KW's needed to heat the room. Because there are no markings on the radiators, it was impossible for him to say if they are big enough or not, but looking at them, he didn't think they are.
Persimmon have refused to issue us with the radiator schedule from Domestic Heating Design in Kettering, saying it's not company policy. We phoned them direct and they wouldn't give them to us, saying Persimmon wouldn't allow it. However, Persimmon have arranged for a Senior Engineer from PSS Midlands to come and survey the house, which he did yesterday afternoon. He has measured all the radiators in cms and is now going to go away and work out if they're big enough or not. He says generally, whatever the schedule says, the plumber "knocks off 10% of the upstairs radiator sizes", based on the theory that heat rises, so they don't need to be so big.
He also agreed that the thermostat is incorrectly positioned and we discussed where to re-site it, but I said the two coldest bedrooms (can't get them above 17 degrees) needed bigger radiators first.
If your house plan showed two radiators in the bedroom, then they should either have fitted two, or one big enough to have the correct KW output. If they haven't followed the schedule then you can certainly get them to correct it.
Also, you most certainly can dispute the fact that your house is not heating up correctly, the Engineer from British Gas said they're well known for skimping on radiators and he gets call outs all the time. He had to come and "balance" our heating and did in fact disable some of the radiator thermostats to "force" the heating to work better. It has improved, but does mean the boiler is not working at optimum capacity etc.
If I were you, I'd get British Gas round to assess your heating, or insist that Persimmon send PSS round, and pursue the issue fervently!
Good luck!
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liz69
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Re:Persimmon Fit Undersized Radiators - 2008/03/22 12:07Thanks for your reply katherineparkvictim2.
I shall look into getting British Gas round, but who are PSS?
We also got the same blurb that the upstairs will always be colder than downstairs, but the way things are I'm sure the garage is warmer than the bedroom!
Also is there any chance that Persimmon would turn around and say we have invalidated any guarantees by getting an independant round? I know I'm being overly cautious but after hearing some of the ridiculous things that have come from Persimmons, anything is possible with them.
I would be interested to know how you get on with this issue, so keep us updated (I'll do the same if I have any luck)
Good luck to you too!
Liz.
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katherineparkvictim2
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Re:Persimmon Fit Undersized Radiators - 2008/03/31 19:37Hi Liz, PSS Midlands are the independent plumbing company that Persimmon have called in, although I believe Renelec actually plumbed the system in here.
I think the only way you could invalidate a guarantee with Persimmon is if you were to go ahead and have another contractor make some alterations, but just inspecting it is not changing anything, so they can't possibly object - especially as we had British Gas round!
We're still waiting for PSS to report back, but I will let you know what they say.
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KatherineParkVictim
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Re:Persimmon Fit Undersized Radiators - 2008/04/02 00:00Apologies for not posting back sooner, but a lot has gone on. We’ll do a quick response now on events, and answer the queries in your posts, but will come back by the end of the week with more detail – just want you to know we’re all on the same lines:
Update: Our NHBC visit on 4 March was a good result – the NHBC inspector looked at the Persimmon Radiator Schedule (from DHD), the DeLonghi catalogue for the compact radiators specified and fitted, spotted the shortfall – and then (we love this bit) turned to persimmon’s man and stated “But this is obvious!”. I was chewing on my knuckle to stifle the laughter at this. Wonderful.
NHBC then tasked Persimmon formally to account for the difference – the response from DHD in a nutshell (and buried under paragraphs of techno babble) said ‘Run your boiler central heating water temp at 80 degrees C’ – in English they’re saying that if you run them hotter, the undersized rads will provide enough output. This higher setting, they state, is agreed with the Persimmon group. That looks like they have bounced the issue back to Persimmon.
The problem with this is that we, the customer, are being told to run the boiler hotter than it is designed for – the manufacturer’s setting for design efficiency is 70 degrees C, and has been confirmed by Glow Worm as such for our boiler.
This means Persimmon, with their decision to fit smaller radiators (saving costs up-front) want us, their customers, to run inefficient boiler settings, burn more fuel, bigger bills, and of course a bigger carbon footprint, etc – right against what common sense and the government are saying should be the case. Our independent has confirmed our thoughts on the inefficiency, etc.
We will now be going back to NHBC with this as our response, and are looking at engaging such bodies as might well take a significant media interest in Persimmon’s (undisclosed) policy on this. We have also engaged a consultant who is standing by to produce a court admissible report – he’s a specialist and does this a lot, so we’re covered if/when this goes to court (and it will if it needs to, we promise you).
From your posts:
Radiator Schedule - They cannot withhold the radiator schedule – company policy or not – as you should be given this under the Freedom of Information Act; it relates directly to you and your affairs, nor is it commercially sensitive information, etc - and as such is a prime candidate for consideration under this act. Suggest you contact your MP if they do not comply.
If any Katherine Park Phase 1 Richmond house type owners want sight of our DHD radiator schedule, we would be happy to let you have a copy - it details the plots covered; see my earlier posts. The DeLonghi catologue is also very hard to source, but we will happily share that with you as well (as it specifies exactly the radiator type and all technical information). Just send us a separate message, and it will be taken care of.
Independents – Completely agree on what has been said, we gave a copy of our indeps’ radiator report to NHBC in front of Persimmon, and there was no problem – it was actually quoted in the NHBC response to persimmon as well – worth its weight in gold!
Heating Formula – We initially used the Persimmon schedule and DeLonghi’s radiator catalogue, but our independent did a load of calculations and came to the same conclusion in his written report. Most heating engineers have an industry recognised bit of software that works it out and generates a calculation sheet on all the factors – we wouldn’t do this ourselves, but covered it through the independent to also gain more authority.
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togo.bevan
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Re:Persimmon Fit Undersized Radiators - 2008/04/04 14:11Hi
I am also interested in this one as I have been trying to get a copy of our property drawings at assess the U-values.
How is the Freedom of Information Act applicable to Persimmon / NHBC as they are not regarded as public bodies?
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katherineparkvictim2
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Re:Persimmon Fit Undersized Radiators - 2008/04/07 13:13Hi, I got copies of the house drawings from the Council, but they were as vague as the ones in their sales brochure. I don't understand why they can withhold the information, but they are. We've just had a Building Surveyor in on another matter and he also says they should give us all our drawings etc, but I don't know how to make them do it. A solicitor's letter?
I've just chased Persimmon today for the outcome of the inspection on 19th March. We had thought the heating would soon be going off, but now it's gone cold again, so the issue is back in the forefront of our minds. Will keep you posted...
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